sábado, febrero 17, 2007

Cinco

¿Sólo cinco? Esta es mi lista:
The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.
  • Albert Einstein
  • Baruch Spinoza
  • Johann Sebastian Bach
  • Jules Verne
  • Humphrey Bogart
Estas son las influencia de mi infancia. Luego ya vinieron Borges, Mark Twain, Siddhartha, Dawkins, Penrose...

Etiquetas: , , ,

80 Comments:

Blogger Chesk escribió...

¿Bogart?

No quiero ni pensar en qué te influyó...

Gracias por hacerlo, Freman. :)

2:37 p. m.  
Blogger Freman escribió...

Gracias por hacerlo, Freman. :)

Por el contrario. Estas son las memas que dan gusto. No lo hice antes porque me puse a escribir todo un tratado sobre las aventuras y desventuras de esa gente, y se me estaba haciendo eterno.

De todos modos, sí que tengo varias cosas que contar sobre Einstein, y sobre Spinoza: sobre cómo es posible que Novalis se refiriese a Spinoza como "aquel judío intoxicado de Dios", siendo Spinoza un ateo confeso. Y por qué a Popper (del bando de los filósofos buenos) le aburría conversar con Einstein. Dijo Popper:

"I learned nothing. He tended to express things in theological terms, and this was often the only way to argue with him. I found it finally quite uninteresting."

A pesar de eso, en algún momento, los del MILF americano (católicos y protestantes) quisieron expulsarlo del país a golpe de mandobles por alguna frase inocente... y mandarlo de vuelta a la Alemania nazi, por cierto. En la frase, Einstein decía que creía "en el dios de Spinoza", y ni siquiera lo dijo por molestar: algunos piadosos chicarrones, preocupados por el bienestar del alma inmortal del genio, le hicieron directamente la pregunta. Y Einstein, acostumbrado a decir la verdad y a no escaquearse, no vio problema alguno en ser sincero.

Ya ves cuál es mi problema: que admiro a gente como estos dos "pájaros". Y como Galileo.

11:55 p. m.  
Blogger rakras escribió...

Uhm, yo, aunque suene mal, reconozco que jamás he sido capaz de dejarme influir por los que se suelen considerar grandes pensadores, tiendo a ir demasiado precavido hacia ellos, además de verlos con demasiada distancia...

Hacia el único que he sentido cierta admiración es Newton, pero sus teorías sobre un conocimiento protegido por una pequeña hermandad que se traslada a lo largo de la historia hicieron que perdiera mucho para mí...

12:40 a. m.  
Blogger Chesk escribió...

Uhm, yo, aunque suene mal, reconozco que jamás he sido capaz de dejarme influir por los que se suelen considerar grandes pensadores

A mí me pasa lo mismo.

También creo que es desinterés por mi parte, al contrario que lo que le pasa al Freman. :)

10:42 a. m.  
Blogger Freman escribió...

Bueno, poned las comillas donde deben ir. Santos no los hay, ni siquiera laicos.

Uhm, yo, aunque suene mal[...]
[...]pero sus teorías sobre un conocimiento protegido por una pequeña hermandad que se traslada

:) esto no lo debería decir en público, pero es muy probable (a ver como lo digo) que seas más coherente en tu sistema de ideas que yo mismo. Y es muy probable que tenga que ver con el carácter. A mí, por ejemplo, me ocurre que de vez en cuando me da por el "misticismo": no tiene que ver con ideas, sino con la cantidad de endorfinas (o lo que sea) que tenga circulando por la CPU. Como no se trata de algo inducido voluntariamente, ni tiene que ver con mi red de datos, intento controlarlo y encauzarlo creativamente. De ahí es de donde vienen mis simpatías tardías por Einstein y Spinoza: porque es muy probable que sufrieran algún síntoma de este tipo. La frase de Novalis ("intoxicado de Dios") es bastante exacta.

Mira las frases de Einstein: "Dios no juega a los dados". O lo de "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind", que cita Dawkins en The God Delusion. Claro, el problema es que la "religión" que menciona Einstein no se parece a las religiones tradicionales: no hay un dios reconociblemente antropomórfico (ni hay "propósitos" ni nada semejante), y no hay tampoco mediadores o ritos. A quien tiene un racionalismo mejor estructurado, todo esto le suena a mumbo jumbo. Y a quien practica alguna religión tradicional, esto le suena a herejía.

Hacia el único que he sentido cierta admiración es Newton,

Haz cuentas: Newton, alquimista. Kepler, astrólogo. Gödel, fan de Platón. Penrose, fan de Gödel. ¿Conoces la historia de la visión de Descartes? En la época de Newton todavía estaba relativamente fresca la leyenda de la hermandad rosacruz. Por supuesto, también hay genios de "mente fría", pero yo, por carácter, me siento más identificado con el otro modelo. No porque me guste más y lo elija voluntariamente ... sino porque es lo que me ha tocado. Es "lo que hay".

1:27 p. m.  
Blogger Freman escribió...

:) De todos modos, no llaméis "pensador" a mi pobre Einstein. Un pensador es un individuo que se hace pajas mentales con asuntos que no tienen forma de ser verificados, como la bondad humana, el gobierno perfecto o la existencia de Dios. Luego, a veces después de muerto, espera a que aparezca algún dictador para que ponga su paja mental en práctica. Cuando fracasa, el pensador traza una cruz sobre su agenda y exclama: "arghhh! por muy poco!!!", y si está vivo aún, vuelve al agradable ejercicio de estimularse los senos nasales.

Einstein eyaculó una teoría física aplicable tanto a la cercanía donde todos habitamos como a los rincones más ocultos del universo, y bingo, en 1919 o 1920, no recuerdo bien, ya alguien había demostrado que era cierta. De hecho, si no fuese por la gran paja del 1916, la Teoría General, nuestros GPS no funcionarían correctamente.

Por cierto, mirad qué serie de analogías: Spinoza vivía de doblegar rayos de luz. Era pulidor de lentes, y las lentes doblan la luz, ¿no? Einstein predijo que la masa doblegaba también los rayos de luz, e inventó la primera lente cósmica. Freman, como Rakras puede atestiguar, vive también de doblar, doblegar y duplicar rayos de luz. No son los holandeses rayos perezosos de Spinoza, ni los luciferianos rebeldes de Einstein. Los míos son engañosamente consentidores. Te dice cosas como "¿así que quieres que violemos la ley de Fresnel? tú mandas".

Spinoza, por su parte, si parece encajar más en el molde del pensador, ¡y sin embargo, tampoco encaja! No es un tipo que ensambla una nueva idea y dice: "ja, usadla y os acordaréis de mí". Por el contrario, es como el auditor que examina una vieja estructura y dice: "no entiendo cómo coño podéis vivir tan despreocupadamente sin pensar en la posibilidad del derrumbe". No dice "esto funciona", pero tampoco "esto funcionará", que es lo inaceptable, sino "esto ya no firula, coleguitas".

8:02 p. m.  
Blogger rakras escribió...

Difiero de esa interpretación de pensador, yo ese es el significado que percibo que tiene intelectual, y pensador le llamo a la gente que habla de temas "de letras" en general...

Desde luego, la relatividad es algo bastante más respetable que todas esas cosas, pero aunque todo esté relacionado, ya hay partes del pensamiento de Einstein que me parecen bastante alejadas de sus ideas físicas, al menos lo suficiente para no ser la única conclusión a la que se puede llegar desde ellas, y quizás encajen más en alguno de los otros conceptos de antes...reconociendo, dicho sea de paso, que puedo estar cometiendo muchos fallos en esto porque Einstein tampoco es lo mío...

1:14 a. m.  
Blogger Freman escribió...

al menos lo suficiente para no ser la única conclusión a la que se puede llegar desde ellas, y quizás encajen más en alguno de los otros conceptos de antes...

¿La parte "filosófica"? Perdona si estoy un poco perdido. Digo lo de la filosofía porque cuando ya se entra en la cara "política", por llamarla de algún modo, ahí abandono al personaje. Como todo el mundo, dijo e hizo cosas buenas y malas, y estas últimas no fueron demasiado graves. De todos modos, me distancio bastante de la opinión común de que no hay que escuchar a un "sabio" en temas fuera de su área de competencia. Es cierto que se equivocan con mucha frecuencia, pero es que hay áreas que no son "competencia" de nadie. Y estoy pensando, en concreto, en el NOMA de Gould: non-overlapping magisteria, la teoría según la cual la teología tiene un área de competencia propia.

Respecto al tema "filosófico", que es muy interesante, no sé si conoces a Ernst Mach (el de la medida de velocidad). Lo menciono porque sé que has leído el libro de Matthew Stewart y éste es un caso a primera vista extraño. Mach fue el "proveedor" de muchas de las intuiciones de adulto de Einstein, sobre todo las que tuvieron que ver con la Relatividad General. Digo que es extraño porque es difícil llamar "ciencia" a lo que hacía Mach en estos temas... pero es que la mismísima actividad de Einstein en la Relatividad General se ajusta a lo que Matthew Stewart exagera (con fines didácticos) como tarea inútil: intentar averiguar algo sobre el mundo y el universo sin levantarse de la butaca. La trampa, claro, es que un Einstein e incluso un Mach ya tenían suficientes datos empíricos para manejar.

¿A qué te referías?

1:32 a. m.  
Blogger rakras escribió...

Parte sociopolítica, sí, y también frases de guía en la vida. Esa en general.



Claramente, para hablar de política voy a escuchar antes a un científico con el que esté de acuerdo o me parezca sensato que a Zapatero, que es político, lo que no creo es que haya que escuchar más o menos a un científico porque sus teorías sean ciertas.

Por ejemplo, ahora mismo del wikiquote de Einstein...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki
/Albert_Einstein

"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor — not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules."

Dicho sea de paso, debajo te encuentras una frase criticando el socialismo a lo burócrata (como si existiera otro...), pero no voy a estar más o menos de acuerdo con lo anterior por que Einstein expusiera la Teoría de la Relatividad.

A esto me refiero en general.

A las frases sobre religión, ese no es mi tema, aviso, probablemente lo sea alguna vez, pero ahora desde luego no. Pero en todo caso, llegar desde la teoría de la relatividad o cualquier hecho físico a

"We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God"

es algo que se me escapa como hacer.

Y si alguien que habla de esto, habla también de política, el sentido de la religión, "and everything", yo tiendo a encajar eso como pensador, sin que la etiqueta sea positiva o negativa de momento. Otra cosa es que Einstein fuese físico, y justo por la parte a la que se dedicase es bastante fácil ir derivando hacia estos temas, y en alguna medida pueden seguir arrastrando parte "científica" las consideraciones. Pero a partir de cierto límite (y ahora mismo no sabría colocarlo), yo tiendo a considerar lo segundo aparte de la parte física, y espero explicarme, aunque la verdad es que no lo estoy haciendo demasiado bien.

En todo caso, no tomes todo esto demasiado en serio, al fin y al cabo... "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

----
Respecto a lo que tu mismo comentas, hay una diferencia bastante grande entre especular sobre el "ser" y la "esencia del ser", y buscar una nueva teoría cuando los hechos contradicen la existente...
-----

Y perdón por el Spanglish, que ya sé que queda snob, pero es que tengo la costumbre de mirar las citas en inglés...

3:27 p. m.  
Blogger Freman escribió...

Y perdón por el Spanglish, que ya sé que queda snob, pero es que tengo la costumbre de mirar las citas en inglés...

Juas, juas... no te preocupes. Yo me contengo, de manera que no voy a lanzar ni la primera ni la segunda piedra.

Parte sociopolítica, sí, y también frases de guía en la vida. Esa en general.

Ja, ja. Tienes toda la razón, pero es que además, ni me habría pasado por la cabeza. Einstein, para echarle más leña al fuego, incluso sale pringado en los papeles de Venona. Al parecer, protegió a dos colaboradores suyos que estaban implicados con el KGB. O más bien, no intervino. Se puede intentar una disculpa desde la lealtad, pero es un manchón en cualquier caso.

Por eso es que esa parte ni me la planteo. Buscar una influencia en mi "concepción" o "actitud política" es un poco jodido... e imagino que, salvando unos cuantos iconos, te va a pasar a tí también. Sí, yo me leí a Hayek de crío (un resumen en el Reader's Digest), y la vida y andanzas de Churchill... pero esas cosas las vi siempre como propias del sentido común. Si tuviese que elegir a alguien como influencia, eligiría a mi propio padre: es una persona que nunca ha sentido el tirón del izquierdismo, y que al mismo tiempo, está muy lejos de cualquier maniqueísmo de derechas (y es una persona muy religiosa... a su manera).

En el fondo, lo que ocurre es que el liberalismo no es una ideología, cuando se ha entendido correctamente. Y creo que sé por qué no lo es: el liberalismo es una receta negativa. No te dice lo que hay que hacer, excepto en el sentido de que te dice lo que NO hay que hacer.

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